The Presidential candidates, Democrat Barack Obama and Republican
John McCain, met in their third and final debate last night. Bob Schieffer of CBS News moderated the town hall debate that took place
at Hofstra University in Hempstead, New York and was hosted by the
Commission on Presidential Debates.
As we have done for the previous debates, OhMyGov! watched for evidence of the direction each candidate would take the federal workforce and government programs if elected. The format of this debate allowed for longer discussions and a more free-flowing conversation within the stated questions than in previous debates. Due to this, we have reprinted two entire segments of the transcript in order to preserve the context. The first segment has to do with deficit spending and the second with the government's role in health care.
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SCHIEFFER: We found out yesterday that this year's deficit will reach an astounding record high $455 billion. Some experts say it could go to $1 trillion next year.
Both of you have said you want to reduce the deficit, but the nonpartisan Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget ran the numbers on both of your proposals and they say the cost of your proposals, even with the savings you claim can be made, each will add more than $200 billion to the deficit.
Aren't you both ignoring reality? Won't some of the programs you are proposing have to be trimmed, postponed, even eliminated? Give us some specifics on what you're going to cut back. Senator Obama?
OBAMA: Well, first of all, I think it's important for the American public to understand that the $750 billion rescue package, if it's structured properly, and, as president, I will make sure it's structured properly, means that ultimately taxpayers get their money back, and that's important to understand. But there is no doubt that we've been living beyond our means and we're going to have to make some adjustments. Now, what I've done throughout this campaign is to propose a net spending cut. I haven't made a promise about...
SCHIEFFER: But you're going to have to cut some of these programs, certainly.
OBAMA: Absolutely. So let me get to that. What I want to emphasize, though, is that I have been a strong proponent of pay-as- you-go. Every dollar that I've proposed, I've proposed an additional cut so that it matches. And some of the cuts, just to give you an example, we spend $15 billion a year on subsidies to insurance companies. It doesn't -- under the Medicare plan -- it doesn't help seniors get any better. It's not improving our health care system. It's just a giveaway. We need to eliminate a whole host of programs that don't work. And I want to go through the federal budget line by line, page by page, programs that don't work, we should cut. Programs that we need, we should make them work better.
Now, what is true is that Senator McCain and I have a difference in terms of the need to invest in America and the American people. I mentioned health care earlier. If we make investments now so that people have coverage, that we are preventing diseases, that will save on Medicare and Medicaid in the future. If we invest in a serious energy policy, that will save in the amount of money we're borrowing from China to send to Saudi Arabia. If we invest now in our young people and their ability to go to college, that will allow them to drive this economy into the 21st century.
But what is absolutely true is that, once we get through this economic crisis and some of the specific proposals to get us out of this slump, that we're not going to be able to go back to our profligate ways. And we're going to have to embrace a culture and an ethic of responsibility, all of us, corporations, the federal government, and individuals out there who may be living beyond their means.
SCHIEFFER: Time's up. Senator?
MCCAIN: Well, thank you, Bob. I just want to get back to this home ownership. During the Depression era, we had a thing called the home ownership loan corporation. And they went out and bought up these mortgages. And people were able to stay in their homes, and eventually the values of those homes went up, and they actually made money. And, by the way, this was a proposal made by Senator Clinton not too long ago. So, obviously, if we can start increasing home values, then there will be creation of wealth.
SCHIEFFER: But what...
MCCAIN: But -- OK. All right.
SCHIEFFER: The question was, what are you going to cut?
MCCAIN: Energy -- well, first -- second of all, energy independence. We have to have nuclear power. We have to stop sending $700 billion a year to countries that don't like us very much. It's wind, tide, solar, natural gas, nuclear, off-shore drilling, which Senator Obama has opposed. And the point is that we become energy independent and we will create millions of jobs -- millions of jobs in America.
OK, what -- what would I cut? I would have, first of all, across-the-board spending freeze, OK? Some people say that's a hatchet. That's a hatchet, and then I would get out a scalpel, OK? Because we've got -- we have presided over the largest increase -- we've got to have a new direction for this country. We have presided over the largest increase in government since the Great Society. Government spending has gone completely out of control; $10 trillion dollar debt we're giving to our kids, a half-a-trillion dollars we owe China. I know how to save billions of dollars in defense spending. I know how to eliminate programs.
SCHIEFFER: Which ones?
MCCAIN: I have fought against -- well, one of them would be the marketing assistance program. Another one would be a number of subsidies for ethanol. I oppose subsidies for ethanol because I thought it distorted the market and created inflation; Senator Obama supported those subsidies. I would eliminate the tariff on imported sugarcane-based ethanol from Brazil. I know how to save billions. I saved the taxpayer $6.8 billion by fighting a deal for a couple of years, as you might recall, that was a sweetheart deal between an aircraft manufacturer, DOD, and people ended up in jail.
But I would fight for a line-item veto, and I would certainly veto every earmark pork-barrel bill. Senator Obama has asked for nearly $1 billion in pork-barrel earmark projects...
SCHIEFFER: Time's up.
MCCAIN: ... including $3 million for an overhead projector in a planetarium in his hometown. That's not the way we cut -- we'll cut out all the pork.
SCHIEFFER: Time's up.
OBAMA: Well, look, I think that we do have a disagreement about an across-the-board spending freeze. It sounds good. It's proposed periodically. It doesn't happen.
And, in fact, an across-the-board spending freeze is a hatchet, and we do need a scalpel, because there are some programs that don't work at all. There are some programs that are underfunded. And I want to make sure that we are focused on those programs that work.
Now, Senator McCain talks a lot about earmarks. That's one of the centerpieces of his campaign. Earmarks account for 0.5 percent of the total federal budget. There's no doubt that the system needs reform and there are a lot of screwy things that we end up spending money on, and they need to be eliminated. But it's not going to solve the problem.
Now, the last thing I think we have to focus on is a little bit of history, just so that we understand what we're doing going forward. When President Bush came into office, we had a budget surplus and the national debt was a little over $5 trillion. It has doubled over the last eight years. And we are now looking at a deficit of well over half a trillion dollars.
So one of the things that I think we have to recognize is pursuing the same kinds of policies that we pursued over the last eight years is not going to bring down the deficit. And, frankly, Senator McCain voted for four out of five of President Bush's budgets. We've got to take this in a new direction, that's what I propose as president.
Watch the clip of courtesy of C-SPAN.
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SCHIEFFER: All right, let's go to a new topic, health care. Given
the current economic situation, would either of you now favor
controlling health care costs over expanding health care coverage? The
question is first to Senator Obama.
OBAMA: We've got to do both, and that's exactly what my plan does. Look, as I travel around the country, this is the issue that will
break your heart over and over again. Just yesterday, I was in Toledo
shaking some hands in a line. Two women, both of them probably in their
mid- to late-50s, had just been laid off of their plant. Neither of
them have health insurance. And they were desperate for some way of getting coverage, because,
understandably, they're worried that, if they get sick, they could go
bankrupt.
So here's what my plan does. If you have health insurance, then you
don't have to do anything. If you've got health insurance through your
employer, you can keep your health insurance, keep your choice of
doctor, keep your plan.The only thing we're going to try to do is lower costs so that those
cost savings are passed onto you. And we estimate we can cut the
average family's premium by about $2,500 per year. If you don't have
health insurance, then what we're going to do is to provide you the
option of buying into the same kind of federal pool that both Senator
McCain and I enjoy as federal employees, which will give you
high-quality care, choice of doctors, at lower costs, because so many
people are part of this insured group. We're going to make sure that insurance companies can't discriminate
on the basis of pre-existing conditions. We'll negotiate with the drug
companies for the cheapest available price on drugs. We are going to invest in information technology to eliminate bureaucracy and make the system more efficient. And we are going to make sure that we manage chronic illnesses, like
diabetes and heart disease, that cost a huge amount, but could be
prevented. We've got to put more money into preventive care.
This will cost some money on the front end, but over the long term
this is the only way that not only are we going to make families
healthy, but it's also how we're going to save the federal budget,
because we can't afford these escalating costs.
SCHIEFFER: All right. Senator McCain?
MCCAIN: Well, it is a terribly painful situation for Americans.
They're seeing their premiums, their co-pays go up. Forty-seven million
Americans are without health insurance in America today. And it really is the cost, the escalating costs of health care that
are inflicting such pain on working families and people across this
country. And I am convinced we need to do a lot of things.
We need to put health care records online. The V.A. does that. That
will -- that will reduce costs. We need to have more community health
centers. We need to have walk-in clinics. The rise of obesity amongst young Americans is one of the most
alarming statistics that there is. We should have physical fitness
programs and nutrition programs in schools. Every parent should know
what's going on there. We -- we need to have -- we need to have employers reward employees who join health clubs and practice wellness and fitness.
But I want to give every American family a $5,000 refundable tax
credit. Take it and get anywhere in America the health care that you
wish.
Now, my old buddy, Joe, Joe the plumber, is out there. Now, Joe,
Senator Obama's plan, if you're a small business and you are able --
and your -- the guy that sells to you will not have his capital gains
tax increase, which Senator Obama wants, if you're out there, my
friend, and you've got employees, and you've got kids, if you don't get
-- adopt the health care plan that Senator Obama mandates, he's going
to fine you. Now, Senator Obama, I'd like -- still like to know what that
fine is going to be, and I don't think that Joe right now wants to pay
a fine when he is seeing such difficult times in America's economy.
Senator Obama wants to set up health care bureaucracies, take over
the health care of America through -- as he said, his object is a
single payer system. If you like that, you'll love Canada and England. So the point is...
SCHIEFFER: So that's your objective?
OBAMA: It is not and I didn't describe it...
MCCAIN: No, you stated it.
OBAMA: I just...
MCCAIN: Excuse me.
OBAMA: I just described what my plan is. And I'm happy to talk to
you, Joe, too, if you're out there. Here's your fine -- zero. You won't
pay a fine, because...
MCCAIN: Zero?
OBAMA: Zero, because as I said in our last debate and I'll repeat,
John, I exempt small businesses from the requirement for large
businesses that can afford to provide health care to their employees,
but are not doing it. I exempt small businesses from having to pay into a kitty. But large
businesses that can afford it, we've got a choice. Either they provide
health insurance to their employees or somebody has to.
Right now, what happens is those employees get dumped into either
the Medicaid system, which taxpayers pick up, or they're going to the
emergency room for uncompensated care, which everybody picks up in
their premiums. The average family is paying an additional $900 a year in higher premiums because of the uninsured.
So here's what we do. We exempt small businesses. In fact, what,
Joe, if you want to do the right thing with your employees and you want
to provide them health insurance, we'll give you a 50 percent credit so
that you will actually be able to afford it. If you don't have health insurance or you want to buy into a group
plan, you will be able to buy into the plan that I just described.
Now, what we haven't talked about is Senator McCain's plan. He says
he's going to give you all a $5,000 tax credit. That sounds pretty
good. And you can go out and buy your own insurance. Here's the problem -- that for about 20 million people, you may find
yourselves no longer having employer-based health insurance. This is
because younger people might be able to get health insurance for
$5,000, young and healthy folks. Older folks, less healthy folks, what's going to end up happening
is that you're going to be the only ones left in your employer-based
system, your employers won't be able to afford it.
And once you're out on your own with this $5,000 credit, Senator
McCain, for the first time, is going to be taxing the health care
benefits that you have from your employer. And this is your plan, John. For the first time in history, you will be taxing people's health care benefits.
By the way, the average policy costs about $12,000. So if you've got
$5,000 and it's going to cost you $12,000, that's a loss for you.
Last point about Senator McCain's plan is that insurers right now,
the main restrictions on what they do is primarily state law and, under
Senator McCain's plan, those rules would be stripped away and you would
start seeing a lot more insurance companies cherry-picking and
excluding people from coverage. That, I think, is a mistake and I think that this is a fundamental
difference in our campaign and how we would approach health care.
SCHIEFFER: What about that?
MCCAIN: Hey, Joe, you're rich, congratulations, because what Joe
wanted to do was buy the business that he's been working for 10-12
hours a day, seven days a week, and you said that you wanted to spread
the wealth, but -- in other words, take Joe's money and then you decide
what to do with it.
Now, Joe, you're rich, congratulations, and you will then fall into
the category where you'll have to pay a fine if you don't provide
health insurance that Senator Obama mandates, not the kind that you
think is best for your family, your children, your employees, but the
kind that he mandates for you.
That's big government at its best. Now, 95 percent of the people in
America will receive more money under my plan because they will receive
not only their present benefits, which may be taxed, which will be
taxed, but then you add $5,000 onto it, except for those people who
have the gold-plated Cadillac insurance policies that have to do with
cosmetic surgery and transplants and all of those kinds of things.
And the good thing about this is they'll be able to go across
America. The average cost of a health care insurance plan in America
today is $5,800. I'm going to give them $5,000 to take with them
wherever they want to go, and this will give them affordability. This will give them availability. This will give them a chance to
choose their own futures, not have Senator Obama and government decide
that for them. This really gets down to the fundamental difference in our
philosophies. If you notice that in all of this proposal, Senator --
government wants -- Senator Obama wants government to do the job. Senator Obama wants government to do the job. I want, Joe, you to do the job.
I want to leave money in your pocket. I want you to be able
to choose the health care for you and your family. That's what I'm all
about. And we've got too much government and too much spending and the
government is -- the size of government has grown by 40 percent in the
last eight years. We can't afford that in the next eight years and Senator Obama, with
the Democrats in charge of Congress, things have gotten worse. Have you
noticed, they've been in charge the last two years.
SCHIEFFER: All right. A short response.
OBAMA: Very briefly. You all just heard my plan. If you've got an
employer-based health care plan, you keep it. Now, under Senator
McCain's plan there is a strong risk that people would lose their
employer-based health care. That's the choice you'll have is having your employer no longer
provide you health care. And don't take my word for it. The U.S.
Chamber of Commerce, which generally doesn't support a lot of
Democrats, said that this plan could lead to the unraveling of the
employer-based health care system. All I want to do, if you've already got health care, is lower your costs. That includes you, Joe.
Watch the clip of courtesy of C-SPAN.
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For the full debate go to C-SPAN's debate hub.
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